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| bez89 |
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| Juvie |
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| Joined: Mar 05, 2006 |
| Posts: 200 |
| Location: california |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 13, 2006 - 11:13 PM
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so sandfire is not a color? is it a gene or does it carry a certian trait? is it just a name given to a bd that just caught on? also why are german giants giant?
i want to be real clear on this. i want to know everythng. this is really interesting stuff. |
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| clarinet45 |
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| Joined: Jun 25, 2005 |
| Posts: 2843 |
| Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 12:09 AM
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no, 'sandfire' is not a primary, secondary, or even tertiary color! It's not even a name associated with a certain pattern. It's just a name that's carried by the dragons produced by Sandfire Dragon Ranch. My feng is only 1/2 sandfire, but only her grandparents were actually bred by SandFire dragon ranch.
History of GG's |
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Sara Gatto
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| bez89 |
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| Juvie |
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| Joined: Mar 05, 2006 |
| Posts: 200 |
| Location: california |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 03:45 PM
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i purchased a dragon labeled as sandfire red from a breeder and not sandfire dragon ranch. does that mean it's not considered a sandfire? why are so many bds sandfire? i see a lot of them.
also, what is the difference between sunburst and normal yellow? is it just that sunburst kind of glow?
all these different names are confusing.
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| CheriS |
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| Joined: Apr 13, 2002 |
| Posts: 3298 |
| Location: Florida |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 04:32 PM
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Your dragon *could* be from a sandfire line, or it could have no relationship whatsoever with ANY sandfire line. Only the breeder who keeps breeding line records can tell you and prove that. I think that the majority of dragons being sold as sandfire is just like that lady at the Tampa show and they are not related whatsoever and none of their prior generations ever where near Sandfire Ranch. People saw something in a magazine just like she did and thinks that hers look similar to them (actually those looked nothing like them) or they are using it as a marketing gimmick to sell them, that can be good or bad, depending on how you feel about Sandfire Ranch or their lines.
It is confusing and has caused many private home breeders (and some larger ones) to really trash the breeding lines in the US. That is why I wrote this, I get tired of seeing people in a panic as to why the babies they just hatched have kinked tails, are dying or are very weak when they claim they bought them from different breeders in different parts of the country. That means nothing, they can still be full siblings even years apart of related in the 2,3 or 4th generations and those are usually going to have some if not a lot of genetic problems or terrible immune systems and other problems.
Since bearded dragons stated in the US from a fairly small gene pool, it is very had to avoid inbreeding unless you keep or get really good records from the breeder. Sadly most of the larger breeders in the US kept no records whatsoever and had groups of dragons living together, they can not even tell you who the mother or father of a clutch were, it could have been one of many.
Sunburst is a line of dragons that Kevin Dunne selectively only breed the bright lighter yellows to each other for several generations (and he outcrossed them also to avoid messed up genetics) until he produced AND they breed fairly true, bright vivid yellow dragons. He called them sunburst, but they are also known as citrus and lemons. They came from normal yellows, but by selective breeding, you are more sure of getting the lighter yellows and their offspring will also be more likely to produce those.............. although you can also have some throwbacks to the brassy or darker golds.
One thing, a true Sunburst or Citrus that comes from the ones Kevin produced are very hearty and good size, not small and weaker dragons like ones that have been inbreed and sold recently by others breeders. Some breeders try to skip the careful breeding to make money fast on a popular morph and will breed to related dragons to produce that color in the next generation (we saw this recently with the trans and how sickly they were 2 years ago .... not taking the time to create hets or dragons that carry a trait and breeding it to other lines to make strong unrelated dragons.
Those people to me are not quality breeders, they are business people/marketing pros, that are capitalizing on the animals or the public and at the expense of both. A quality breeder is someone who is watching out for the long term well being of a species and producing healthy babies that do not die off the first month a new owner has them... or cost more in vet bills than the owner paid for them in a short time. |
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"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched. They must be felt with the heart." -Helen Keller
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| clarinet45 |
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| Joined: Jun 25, 2005 |
| Posts: 2843 |
| Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 04:40 PM
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What breeder? yes, you can buy a sandfire or a Chris Allen red or a Sunburst or such from a breeder other than the orginal creator of the name and it still be legit, but I would do some research and get the names of the parents and so forth. I had a lot of fun finding out my dragons' lineages!
A yellow is yellow, a sunburst is yellow. What do you mean by 'glow'? like radioactive? lol, no, it's JUST A NAME.
Example: you want to buy a dog. But what kind of dog? there are different kinds and they look different but in the end they are all the same species. I grew up with labradors, a golden, a chocolate and a black. But they were just yellow, brown and black dogs. Can you sell a brownish dog as a purebred chocolate lab? sure and some people would be none the wiser, but it's unethical. So the AKC and breeders keep track of a dog's papers and lineage and so forth.
Like dragon breeders should and all you have to do is ask and if the breeder has nothing to hide they should tell you where your dragon's parents and grandparents and so forth came from. |
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Sara Gatto
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| CheriS |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 07:10 PM
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Chris Allen Red, now,  what is that?
This is a good example of how a name changes and you lose contact with what it really is or who the draogns are related too. I have seen several times now recently, babies called Chris Allen Reds, but Chris Allen has not breed or sold any dragons for a few years and when he did breed, it was only for a few years/clutches (But darn nice babies!!). Also, he did not call them Chris Allen Reds, but called them RedFlame/Sandfire X Zilla/Goldfroggy's.... so people KNEW where they came from. Since he stopped breeding, I have now seen Flame's offsprings called Chris Allen Red, Chris Allen Flame and Chris Allen RedFlame............ and the Zilla/Goldfroggy has totally been lost along with the Sandfire, yet that is the genetics of all his babies that chris Allen bred and someone (I am sure they already have, have breed his offsrping back into the Zilla/Goldfroggy Line and the Sandfire red line........ oops!
But, this is a good example of what happens with name changes and them getting so confusings, I really perfer the names of the cross according to the parents/grandparents etc... then there is no doubt who is related to who. |
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"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched. They must be felt with the heart." -Helen Keller
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| CheriS |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 07:53 PM
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| For those that already have read this thread prior to 4/14/06, I have add more info onto this so that we can keep it accurate and a good history. I have heard from most of the breeders mentions in these threads and correct any info that was not accurate or clariifed it and added some examples that ahve been provided by them to help avoid inbreeding, So, you might want to read the first post as a lot has changed on it |
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"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched. They must be felt with the heart." -Helen Keller
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| clarinet45 |
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| Joined: Jun 25, 2005 |
| Posts: 2843 |
| Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 08:14 PM
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| Yes, i knew sheo wasn't a TRUE Chris allen when i got hi cause chris had stopped breeding, but i checked out his parents and lineage, they were huge and beautiful so i went for it! and i wasn't disappointed! Needless to say, when i breed feng and sheo i'm not marketing them as Chris Allen Red X sandfire red/gold Xpeach hypos. That would just 1) untrue, as sheo is not red, more of a chocolate. 2) feng is neither red nor 'gold' but an awesome orange, 3) i don't want to clinge to other people's names and 4) i like Sara's Chocolate Oranges better |
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Sara Gatto
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| bez89 |
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| Juvie |
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| Posts: 200 |
| Location: california |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 09:19 PM
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| i purchased her from sunset dragon ranch. she was sold to me as a sandfire red but she looks more orange so would she be a sandfire orange instead? |
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| CheriS |
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| Site Admin |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 09:44 PM
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Clarinet,
My point was that there is no such thing as a chris allen red... he never called them that while breeding or since, that is something that has popped up from others in the last several months. IT will creat more problems as now the Redflame/Sandfire x Zilla/gooldfroggy is gone, people are more apt to breed "chris allen reds" into those lines again. Most the time we check we find that the people using this term, do not have a chris allen line dragons at all. They bought a drgon from someone that was selling them at a show or one of the freebie auctions site. Which we have found you really can not trust people selling on those or what they claim. I think there is more intended deception going on those and a dumping ground for inbreed problems than anywhere including some pet stores.
There is someone on there right now selling Lawsons aka Rankins as "colored rankins" (lawsons are all one color and pattern with VERY rare exceptions) which are cross breds of Lawsons and vitticeps... BAD NEWS as the last time someone tried that a decade ago (calling them VIttikins) it resulted in many egg bound females and dragons on the market that are mixed and do not seem to grow properly.. . so owners do not know they have a cross breed. What's really bad is this person denies publically now that they are crosses because she knows people will not buy them and she wants to claim creating a "new Morph"
Yet, we know for a fact that she has admitted that they were crossed with color vitticeps... and she was calling them Drankins initally (crosses of dragons and rankins), that she has done it for a few generations and has many of them........... so this line is so trashed and should never be breed or represented as Lawson/Rankins ... once she learned that, she started denying in new ads they were crosses and calling them pure vitticeps and a *new morph she created*..... yet you can tell they are crosses. or at least I can and this one has a beard!!!!
Here is one of the ads, look at the side profile photo of the dragon and see the beard that Lawsons/rankins are not suppose to have and also look at the back pattern.
http://www.reptileauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=4050
Someone will buy it and and believe her. Someone actually asked her about it being a cross on the ad, but she removed the question and another person on the feedback has complained about one they got from the same breeder/clutch being a hybrid that they were not told about until later and she denies it on the feedback now. This same breeder has a VERY LONG thread on FaunaClassifieds about misrepresenting other species and their lines that she sells. She claimed another it was from another breeders line in an ad, and he called her on it because he never sold her any he bred. It's sad that they do this stuff and get away with it so much. It gives this industry a bad name, rips people off and harms so many animals, but what can you do?
All of this unethical stuff contributes to more confusion and risk to the species |
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"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched. They must be felt with the heart." -Helen Keller
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| clarinet45 |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 10:16 PM
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| wow, that's horrible. do you have the link to the BOI thread? |
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Sara Gatto
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| CheriS |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: Apr 14, 2006 - 10:36 PM
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I had to go look for it, here it is
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76973&highlight=wendy
Its really long as she just does not see where what she said or advertized is unethical and there is some other guy that she bought animals from that wants to be her knight. I stayed out of that mess as I already have had problems with her trying to sell some who asked my opinions on some really under sized dragons with mouth gaps and deflated fat pads. There also is an issue where there are two names, emails and accounts, she claims one is her mother, but she is the ones that seems to sell and talk to everyone :/ |
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"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched. They must be felt with the heart." -Helen Keller
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| RowingMunkeyCU |
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| Joined: Apr 20, 2006 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 20, 2006 - 04:41 PM
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So if I wanted to get into breeding dragons, which breeders would be the best choices to avoid inbreeding? Would it be a good idea to choose a few from the major breeders (Sandfire, Dragons Den, Atomic)? Do you know of other reputable breeders that have 'pure' (unrelated to the above 3 and not inbred) dragons?
Thanks |
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| CheriS |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 20, 2006 - 07:49 PM
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This is not a question that can be answered the way you think.
MOST dragons that breeders are working with, are not only inbred, they are from the same breeders. There are onlya fewl that keep good records like Kevin of Dragons Den and will tell you if they have been outcrossed or bred into imported lines. There are only a handful of newer breeders that actual know the genetic lines of their dragons back 2 or more generations or are breeding them into fresh imported lines such as AlphaDragonZ or Neverland Dragon, Mystical_Dragons, Sundial (there may be more that I do not know about)
I have never really got to know the people at Atomic, so I do not know about their lines, but I have heard only good things about them
The ones to really worry about and question are the small breeder that are just getting into this or have only a few dragons...... and made sure they know who they came from a few generations back...... because so many of them are breeding close relations and do not know it, |
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"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched. They must be felt with the heart." -Helen Keller
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| staceface |
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| Adolescent |
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| Location: England, North East |
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Post subject: RE: History of...
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 11:15 AM
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| my dragons are 'snow dragons' is it likely that they are related..? |
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2 Bearded Dragons, 1 Corn Snake, 1 Chameleon, 1 Scorpion, 1 Chilean Rose Tarantula, 1 Hermanns Tortoise.
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