*** This has been broken down into 2 sections, since it has gotten so long with updates and making sure everything is correct on here, most of the breeders mentioned have all contacted and verified the info and are happy to see it displayed here and correct.***

Sorry, this is kind of long, but explains the history of dragons and how some names came about and also how the confusion happens and what leads to a lot on unintentional inbreeding.

The majority of dragons are regular/common, and those are great dragons. There are many colors that appear in the wild, such as yellow, red, orange, gold, tans, grays and browns.

Some of the names you hear are just names the person breeding them have stuck on them and some of them get pretty wild with the names, like a jungle or tigers and not colors at all, but a breeding line, like Sandfire. Some of the "titles", most people have no clue what they are talking about and claim them only to sell the animals better they think, but it is false advertising....

Example, Joel Roberts (producer of some of the Godzilla x goldfroggy line) and I were at a show in Tampa a few years ago and looking at some tan to gold babies that did not look very healthy. The lady selling them informed us they where Sandfires... why did she claim they were sandfires we asked? she said
Pretty lame since dragons of many colors do appear in nature, also tells you how much this so breeder knows about bearded dragons. Checking further we found out her dragons came from a pet store that buys their dragons from Flukers (not some place I would want ANY dragons from)............... miles from being a Sandfire or related to any dragon from Sandfire Ranch, (although I guess Flukers could have some Sandfire lines). But this is how most of the people claiming to sell Sandfires seem to come to call their dragons Sandfires. A Sandfire is a selective breeding colors, created at the Sandfire Ranch or from dragons that were bought from them, but not exclusively those colors, so it is more a breeder and his lines, as you can have the vivid yellows, reds and gold from other breeders.

Some breeders in the 90's selectively breed some colors, Sandfire Ranch worked with breeding yellows to yellows and reds to reds to make the colors more vivid, and they called these their "Sandfire gold and Sandfire reds" and when mixed they called them Sandfire RedXGold (which many are orange or have highlight colors of yellow on reds/oranges or oranges with golds/yellows), at the same time, Kevin Dunne of Dragons Den was doing the same thing with dragons from different lines (a lot imported) and calling them Bloods (reds) or Sunburst (yellows) Snows (whites).The Germans were breeding the large boned dragons that come from one area of Australia and calling them German Giants. Then in the US another breeder called Weis Reptiles was bringing in a lot of those German bred larger dragons and breeding them here in the US, then selling them to other breeders. He also introduced the Red Flames and sold some of those to others. Those breeders bred them to their existing lines or others they bought from him, so now you have a Red Flame that is crossed with a German Giant(Weis) and a Blood (DragonsDen) or Sandfire Red or more recently a Cawley Red which is the same thing.

The colors for dragons are gold, yellow, red, orange, tan, brown, grey, white (all appear in nature, but the whites/snows). Some may have other shades in them from mixing colors, such as the ones with lavender sidebars.

Some of the well known established lines are Sandfire, Sunburst/Citrus/Lemon, German Giants, Bloods, Flames, Cawley Red Ex:
http://www.alphadragonz.com/images/cinder_large.jpg , Snows Ex:
http://www.alphadragonz.com/images/cleobreeders_large.jpg

Other names you may see that come from these lines, not created by the breeders, but are renamed by them as their lines are Georgia Peach, Corals, Salmon, Florida Orange, Gems, Tigers, Jungles, Sunglow etc (in some cases these are the 3rd tier of the original Dragon Den's Bloods. Weis's RedFlames or Sandfire Reds), they were Bloods, then called Flames, then called these new names). So someone may breed a Georgia Peach to a Blood thinking they are different names, breeders and from extreme different areas of the country, and they are actually 1/2 siblings or Nephew and Aunt.

Dachiu's and SundialReptiles (I like the way they title their dragons from the parents, there is no confusion there of who they are from) have also produced some of the nicest Hypo's available, but now so have some other breeders at this point from their same pairings, knowing where they came from is very important as they or their parents may have come from them originally.

Recessive traits (as far as we know) are Translucent
http://www.alphadragonz.com/images/glassy1%20breedder.jpg (you can see through their skin), Marketed Leucistics
http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/htm2/dragons.htm (these are not true leucistics, they do not breed true, but more a snow line) Albino's
http://www.reptilerooms.com/articles/pogon...ves/albino3.jpg (there have been 3 clutches with some in them that have hatched) Hypomelanistic's Pastels http://www.dachiu.com/gallery/hypoxpastel.jpg. Black eyes and last is clear nails (which is a different recessive trait than Hypo's, so you can have Hypo's with or without clear nails).

Hope this clears up some confusion and lets people realize how important it is becoming to know where dragons lines come from and to avoid casual breeding.

Imported dragons are very vital to the survival of bearded dragons in the US as a healthy viable species and breeding without knowing the past genetic lines are very risky at best, and not smart at worst. You can not go by the fact of a line name, a breeder, a location in the country, that is shooting in the dark and if done may create some real genetic problems as too many have already found out.

Part 2 will be on another post and is on some examples of actually genetic lines and how some thigns can become so crossed up by the breeders.

Rather interesting story to show how one thing can get so messed up and people confused... and also some questionable ethics of a breeder. Kevin Dunne (who really is one person that worked hard to create healthy unique colors with generations of dragons) selectively breed some nice light bright yellows for years/generations, until he got what he called the Sunburst line, gorgeous dragons with like a neon brightness http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/htm2/dragons.htm (scroll to the Sunburst) He sold some of these to other breeders/future breeders who already had some of his earlier yellows.

A man named Aaron, of dragonaddict.com got out of dragons and sold his breeding group of yellow dragons that were from 3 other breeders lines. A "Lemon Yellow" line from AtomicLizardRanch.net , this line was also know as Lemon-Citrus, prior these were also called Citrus (this is back in 1997) and Tony from Yellowdragon.com was also working with this bloodline called Citrus/Lemon. He took "Citrus AKA Lemon Citrus or Lemon Yellow" from Atomic and crossed them to Kevin's "Sunburst" and continued to call them "Citrus". Kevin had been breeding these Sunburst for years before and they also were called Citrus by others, this is the earliest anyone remembers the citrus name being used and that was in 1997 and used by several breeders ALONG with their own names they changed.

In 2003/2004 a new person to breeding called Terri of Fire & Ice Dragons bought the dragon group that was from Kevin's Sunburst line, AtomicLizard's Lemon Line, YellowDragon's Yellow lines, and Dachiu's yellow lines, breed them and advertised them as a citrus morphs. In the summer of 2004 issue of Dragon Care Magazine, she claimed she developed the citrus line!!! She even created a registry online that she tries to market to others, so she could register and claim herself as the creator of that Citrus line. That was pretty questionable ethic IMO, considering all she did was buy a dragon that other breeder's had spent years selectively breeding stock to produce a nice bright yellow color. She called it a name that had been used for them for at least 5 year before she ever had a dragon, then claimed to be the originator of it. The MAJORITY of these Yellow/Lemon/Citrus (whatever they are called) all go back to Sandfire Ranch just a few generations back, so if anyone that has any called citrus and are breeding them with anything from the above lines, chances are they are inbreeding within 2-3 generations.

The citrus are Kevin Dunne's Sunburst line, Atomic's Lemon Line and YellowDragons Yellow line.... ALL THAT USED THE NAME CITRUS ALSO, but many people now think that this other person created it, and like her may bred a Sunburst to a citrus or a citrus to a sunburst or a lemon to a citrus, actually inbreeding very close relations (and the same line/color, not realizing it since she did this). How would anyone know that a dragon from Kevin in California may actually be a sibling or close relation to a dragon she breed in Pa or MD and sells under a different name and with claiming to create it? .. very misleading to people and potential damaging to the dragons.

IF anyone has any of these dragons, DON'T BE FOOLED, and inbreed them unknowingly, this is were those dragons came from:

In them are:
Citrus/Lemon - came from Atomic Lizard ranch and Kevin Dunne's Sunburst breed by Aaron of DragonAddict
Sandfire Yellow /Yellow Red Desert came from Desert Dwellers and from Dachui's, both prior coming from Sandfire Ranch

At this point, unless they are crossed into new stock, they will be related back to each other... too closely, there really is no way to avoid it.

Here is a good example that most people who have been around dragons very long will recognize:

Flame, the father of many popular babies right now: People know he is a RedFlame cross with a Sandfire, but what are his babies a cross off, as you NEVER see the name of the mother that Chris Allen bred him with, that made him so well know.... MANY came from a female of the Godzilla X Goldfroggy line. I big beautiful female that was extremely hearty and vivid in color. All that line was remarkable............ so Flame's babies are certainly nice, but a huge factor in that may be the mother! Some others came from a pairing back to another Sandfire, so I do not know abou the background of those.

Flame from Chris Allen (now owned by Sunshine Dragons) is a Redflame X Sandfire cross. So if you breed him or any of his offspring to something - say a FlamingTiger you may not realize that their fathers/grandfathers are the same dragon. HOW?

Redflame came from Pete Weis of Florida (WeisDragons.com) the first year he had them. They were awesome colors the first year, but stressed easily so he outcrossed them it is believed as they changed colors after that first year.
The Sandfire part of him came from Nick, The east coast rep for Sandfire-not all Sandfire'ss are produced at the Ranch in California, many are produced by satellite breeders in other states)

Bred him to:

The Flaming is a cross that Dachiu's did. That cross is out of the same Red Flame as above - to a FireTiger female from Kevin Dunne, out of bloods/reds... they potentially have the same father or one grandfather at least.

So

1. Flame or offspring bred with ANY RedFlame or Weis red color dragons would be extremely close genetically.

2. Flame or offsrping bred with any Sandfire Red or RedXGold can be very close

3. Flame or offsrpings bred with any FireTiger would also be very close

4. Flame or offspring bred with any Flaming Tiger could be within 2-3 generations, so very close

5. Flame or offspring bred in the Blood line might be close

None of these should be bred back into the founding line, who in this case is Flame who is a RedFlame X Sandfire cross nor his 1st and 2nd generaton offsrpings OR to any Godzilla X Goldfroggy line or cross from that line as that line is only be a few generations old.

As a former Tonkinese Cat breeder all I can say is WOW!!!

CheriS this is outstanding information.

I ran into the same problem, a breeder was selling some beardies as clearnails hypo sandfire... tehy claimed that it was their own "special" sandfire line, I informed them that they did not have a sandfire line... they didn't, i saw the mother and father... a normal and a pretty red beardie... I walked over to Evergreen reptiles stand and saw the same thing, except, they are reputale breeders, I said, are these true sandfires? he said " yes, they are from sandfire dragon ranch, mailloux himself... so I walked out with a true Sandfire X hypo pastel with clear nails... not a light colored red dragon that was as far as i could see, in shed at the time...

This is excellent reading Cheri, it should go in the knowledgebase.

definalty!

I will move this to the top of the forum for sticky/announcements.

I have had about a half dozen emails of other sites requesting to reprint it.

Great took me a long time but itss really good thanks

Very impressive indeed, like all of CheriS's work!

I also think this should because a knowledge database item.

thank you for the info Cheri!

That's brilliant; awesome! I've always had an interest in lineage, and genomic info, etc.

I have always wonderd what my Bearded Dragon could be but he looks like a Sandfire but I cant be sure cuz I bought him from PETCO

Sounds interseting. Thanks.

that was a truely interesting read

are sunsetdragonranch's sandfires really sandfires and bloods really bloods etc.

We have notice that some breeders that have any color but tans in their collection, advertise them as Sandfire, and none of their lines come from the Sandfire line. Like the breeder I discussed above, I can guarantee that every dragons she sold, and in turn had babies and are sold, are advertized as Sandfires and have never been near Sandfire Ranch.

The breeders know it that start saying that and it just balloons from there. Unless someone can prove thier dragons are from where they claim, do not believe it..... look at all the threads on FaunaClassifieds of people claiming to have for sale dragons from someones lines, only for that breeder to come on and state they never sold to this person, or on that was so funny was someone claiming a dragon from Mystical-Dragons and Matthew of that company saying it was not possible as he had never breed any dragons when the dragon that was for sale was hatched....

Sandfire has come to be associated with a color, which is strange as those colors also appear in nature

so sandfire is not a color? is it a gene or does it carry a certian trait? is it just a name given to a bd that just caught on? also why are german giants giant?

i want to be real clear on this. i want to know everythng. this is really interesting stuff.

no, 'sandfire' is not a primary, secondary, or even tertiary color! It's not even a name associated with a certain pattern. It's just a name that's carried by the dragons produced by Sandfire Dragon Ranch. My feng is only 1/2 sandfire, but only her grandparents were actually bred by SandFire dragon ranch.
History of GG's

i purchased a dragon labeled as sandfire red from a breeder and not sandfire dragon ranch. does that mean it's not considered a sandfire? why are so many bds sandfire? i see a lot of them.

also, what is the difference between sunburst and normal yellow? is it just that sunburst kind of glow?
all these different names are confusing.

Your dragon *could* be from a sandfire line, or it could have no relationship whatsoever with ANY sandfire line. Only the breeder who keeps breeding line records can tell you and prove that. I think that the majority of dragons being sold as sandfire is just like that lady at the Tampa show and they are not related whatsoever and none of their prior generations ever where near Sandfire Ranch. People saw something in a magazine just like she did and thinks that hers look similar to them (actually those looked nothing like them) or they are using it as a marketing gimmick to sell them, that can be good or bad, depending on how you feel about Sandfire Ranch or their lines.

It is confusing and has caused many private home breeders (and some larger ones) to really trash the breeding lines in the US. That is why I wrote this, I get tired of seeing people in a panic as to why the babies they just hatched have kinked tails, are dying or are very weak when they claim they bought them from different breeders in different parts of the country. That means nothing, they can still be full siblings even years apart of related in the 2,3 or 4th generations and those are usually going to have some if not a lot of genetic problems or terrible immune systems and other problems.

Since bearded dragons stated in the US from a fairly small gene pool, it is very had to avoid inbreeding unless you keep or get really good records from the breeder. Sadly most of the larger breeders in the US kept no records whatsoever and had groups of dragons living together, they can not even tell you who the mother or father of a clutch were, it could have been one of many.

Sunburst is a line of dragons that Kevin Dunne selectively only breed the bright lighter yellows to each other for several generations (and he outcrossed them also to avoid messed up genetics) until he produced AND they breed fairly true, bright vivid yellow dragons. He called them sunburst, but they are also known as citrus and lemons. They came from normal yellows, but by selective breeding, you are more sure of getting the lighter yellows and their offspring will also be more likely to produce those.............. although you can also have some throwbacks to the brassy or darker golds.

One thing, a true Sunburst or Citrus that comes from the ones Kevin produced are very hearty and good size, not small and weaker dragons like ones that have been inbreed and sold recently by others breeders. Some breeders try to skip the careful breeding to make money fast on a popular morph and will breed to related dragons to produce that color in the next generation (we saw this recently with the trans and how sickly they were 2 years ago .... not taking the time to create hets or dragons that carry a trait and breeding it to other lines to make strong unrelated dragons.

Those people to me are not quality breeders, they are business people/marketing pros, that are capitalizing on the animals or the public and at the expense of both. A quality breeder is someone who is watching out for the long term well being of a species and producing healthy babies that do not die off the first month a new owner has them... or cost more in vet bills than the owner paid for them in a short time.

What breeder? yes, you can buy a sandfire or a Chris Allen red or a Sunburst or such from a breeder other than the orginal creator of the name and it still be legit, but I would do some research and get the names of the parents and so forth. I had a lot of fun finding out my dragons' lineages!
A yellow is yellow, a sunburst is yellow. What do you mean by 'glow'? like radioactive? lol, no, it's JUST A NAME.
Example: you want to buy a dog. But what kind of dog? there are different kinds and they look different but in the end they are all the same species. I grew up with labradors, a golden, a chocolate and a black. But they were just yellow, brown and black dogs. Can you sell a brownish dog as a purebred chocolate lab? sure and some people would be none the wiser, but it's unethical. So the AKC and breeders keep track of a dog's papers and lineage and so forth.
Like dragon breeders should and all you have to do is ask and if the breeder has nothing to hide they should tell you where your dragon's parents and grandparents and so forth came from.

Chris Allen Red, now, what is that?

This is a good example of how a name changes and you lose contact with what it really is or who the draogns are related too. I have seen several times now recently, babies called Chris Allen Reds, but Chris Allen has not breed or sold any dragons for a few years and when he did breed, it was only for a few years/clutches (But darn nice babies!!). Also, he did not call them Chris Allen Reds, but called them RedFlame/Sandfire X Zilla/Goldfroggy's.... so people KNEW where they came from. Since he stopped breeding, I have now seen Flame's offsprings called Chris Allen Red, Chris Allen Flame and Chris Allen RedFlame............ and the Zilla/Goldfroggy has totally been lost along with the Sandfire, yet that is the genetics of all his babies that chris Allen bred and someone (I am sure they already have, have breed his offsrping back into the Zilla/Goldfroggy Line and the Sandfire red line........ oops!

But, this is a good example of what happens with name changes and them getting so confusings, I really perfer the names of the cross according to the parents/grandparents etc... then there is no doubt who is related to who.

For those that already have read this thread prior to 4/14/06, I have add more info onto this so that we can keep it accurate and a good history. I have heard from most of the breeders mentions in these threads and correct any info that was not accurate or clariifed it and added some examples that ahve been provided by them to help avoid inbreeding, So, you might want to read the first post as a lot has changed on it

Yes, i knew sheo wasn't a TRUE Chris allen when i got hi cause chris had stopped breeding, but i checked out his parents and lineage, they were huge and beautiful so i went for it! and i wasn't disappointed! Needless to say, when i breed feng and sheo i'm not marketing them as Chris Allen Red X sandfire red/gold Xpeach hypos. That would just 1) untrue, as sheo is not red, more of a chocolate. 2) feng is neither red nor 'gold' but an awesome orange, 3) i don't want to clinge to other people's names and 4) i like Sara's Chocolate Oranges better

i purchased her from sunset dragon ranch. she was sold to me as a sandfire red but she looks more orange so would she be a sandfire orange instead?

Clarinet,

My point was that there is no such thing as a chris allen red... he never called them that while breeding or since, that is something that has popped up from others in the last several months. IT will creat more problems as now the Redflame/Sandfire x Zilla/gooldfroggy is gone, people are more apt to breed "chris allen reds" into those lines again. Most the time we check we find that the people using this term, do not have a chris allen line dragons at all. They bought a drgon from someone that was selling them at a show or one of the freebie auctions site. Which we have found you really can not trust people selling on those or what they claim. I think there is more intended deception going on those and a dumping ground for inbreed problems than anywhere including some pet stores.

There is someone on there right now selling Lawsons aka Rankins as "colored rankins" (lawsons are all one color and pattern with VERY rare exceptions) which are cross breds of Lawsons and vitticeps... BAD NEWS as the last time someone tried that a decade ago (calling them VIttikins) it resulted in many egg bound females and dragons on the market that are mixed and do not seem to grow properly.. . so owners do not know they have a cross breed. What's really bad is this person denies publically now that they are crosses because she knows people will not buy them and she wants to claim creating a "new Morph"

Yet, we know for a fact that she has admitted that they were crossed with color vitticeps... and she was calling them Drankins initally (crosses of dragons and rankins), that she has done it for a few generations and has many of them........... so this line is so trashed and should never be breed or represented as Lawson/Rankins ... once she learned that, she started denying in new ads they were crosses and calling them pure vitticeps and a *new morph she created*..... yet you can tell they are crosses. or at least I can and this one has a beard!!!!

Here is one of the ads, look at the side profile photo of the dragon and see the beard that Lawsons/rankins are not suppose to have and also look at the back pattern.
http://www.reptileauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=4050

Someone will buy it and and believe her. Someone actually asked her about it being a cross on the ad, but she removed the question and another person on the feedback has complained about one they got from the same breeder/clutch being a hybrid that they were not told about until later and she denies it on the feedback now. This same breeder has a VERY LONG thread on FaunaClassifieds about misrepresenting other species and their lines that she sells. She claimed another it was from another breeders line in an ad, and he called her on it because he never sold her any he bred. It's sad that they do this stuff and get away with it so much. It gives this industry a bad name, rips people off and harms so many animals, but what can you do?

All of this unethical stuff contributes to more confusion and risk to the species

wow, that's horrible. do you have the link to the BOI thread?

I had to go look for it, here it is
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/sho...highlight=wendy

Its really long as she just does not see where what she said or advertized is unethical and there is some other guy that she bought animals from that wants to be her knight. I stayed out of that mess as I already have had problems with her trying to sell some who asked my opinions on some really under sized dragons with mouth gaps and deflated fat pads. There also is an issue where there are two names, emails and accounts, she claims one is her mother, but she is the ones that seems to sell and talk to everyone :/

So if I wanted to get into breeding dragons, which breeders would be the best choices to avoid inbreeding? Would it be a good idea to choose a few from the major breeders (Sandfire, Dragons Den, Atomic)? Do you know of other reputable breeders that have 'pure' (unrelated to the above 3 and not inbred) dragons?


Thanks

This is not a question that can be answered the way you think.

MOST dragons that breeders are working with, are not only inbred, they are from the same breeders. There are onlya fewl that keep good records like Kevin of Dragons Den and will tell you if they have been outcrossed or bred into imported lines. There are only a handful of newer breeders that actual know the genetic lines of their dragons back 2 or more generations or are breeding them into fresh imported lines such as AlphaDragonZ or Neverland Dragon, Mystical_Dragons, Sundial (there may be more that I do not know about)

I have never really got to know the people at Atomic, so I do not know about their lines, but I have heard only good things about them

The ones to really worry about and question are the small breeder that are just getting into this or have only a few dragons...... and made sure they know who they came from a few generations back...... because so many of them are breeding close relations and do not know it,

my dragons are 'snow dragons' is it likely that they are related..?

Hello, this is truly interesting reading. I have bolo who's pattern looks that of a sandfire, but his color changes he is a dark grey and in the natural sun light, he will become a really light flourescent green tint.



Thanks for all you do Cheri!
~Tish

Sorry if the picture is too big...

~Tish

MOSt dragon patterns look like that and it has nothing to do with being from the Sandfire Ranch or their Dragons. Weis Dragons, Dunne Dragons, Dachui's Dragons AlphaDragonZ Dragons etc all look the same. People just seem to have a tendency to add Sandfire to all dragons, although the majority have no relationship to them

That is so interesting... So basically it is hard to tell? Looking at Bolo, could you tell where he is from.

No, sorry.. rarely can you ever tell that....there are a few lines that you can recognise the line as they have unique traits. I had someone visit out house this weekend and when I saw one of their dragons I thought it looks famailiar, when they stated the dragons age and situation how they came about getting it, I knew who the breeder was and also had photo's of the dragons father.

We imported some babies a few years ago, and some of those people can recognise as they had a unique face, eyes and patterns on them also (not all of them did)

I think Kevin Dunne's Sunburst line is fairly easy to recognize dragons that come from that line (those are also where the citrus come from), Zilla X Goldfroggys are sometimes easy to recognize as they aslo have big builds with fleshy chins and some have the rasied up eyes of the mother and of course you can tell the transleucent and those mostly all orginated with Sandfire ranch,

But most dragons you can not tell by looking at them what line or breeder they come from

So is Sandfire a line? or is it yellows, reds, and oranges mixed? thanks!

Corey

yellows, reds, and oranges mixed are all color that appear in nature, it has nothing to do with sandfire ranch

That is a breeder farm that bred yellow to yellow and red to red to get more vivid colors, like many othter breeder also did or do, its what that farm called their dragon and what many others in error call theirs which did not come from that breeder.

I know someone that just produced the most unique pattern color of a dragon I have ever seen, and she only has one of them.....I will see If I can get her to come and post a the photo, the dragon actually has two tones of stripped colors going down its body with several stripes right into the and under the side spines

So Bloods and Flames are actually reds? same with Sunburst too right? thanks!

Corey

No, a Blood is an acutal breeding line, so is a Red Flame and a Sunburst is a yellow line that Kevin Dunne developed over serveral generation of breeding a certain color of yellow......... that is also what is called citrus today.

A sandfire is a dragon from Sandfire ranch that they breed for yellows or red. or in some cases mixed those, it is not any red dragon or any yellow dragon. and it does not mean it is better or worse that Joes' common gold.

That is one o the problems. a new breeder comes along and decided to name his Red Flame X Sandfire a Gerogai Melon and then you do not know that dragons genetics anymore, actually , novice breeders have really trashed the breeding lines in the US badly!

waow! thanks.

Corey

Here is Hope, the dragon Cheri is referring to.

That's her, she not only have these awesome stripes, she is almost patternless, very gorgerous girl and I am curious how she will turn out as she is only a few mounts old

that was very interesting. I had gone on the classified section to look at photos of morphs and types of beardies because I have no sites to go to and it all got very confusing, and many listed as sandfires looked completly different and these are the normal sandfires. Now I know why! Does it make a difference if they say thay can produce a certificate with breeding lines?

okay so i've been looking like mad for pictures of all the different morphs and have been very unsuccessful but i want to figure out what Nonamis could possibly be :? does anyone know of a site i can go to and see a good amount of the types out there???

WHy not post a photo of your dragon?

Unless you have a rare morph, what you have is a common. which is what the majority of dragons are. you can not look at photos ans see what yours is. You need to know the lines that it came from, that is not something you can guess at from lookinig at photos. That is where so many people in error call their dragons Sandfiires. That is where another breeder and I ran into what I thought was the strangest lady ever to breed and sell dragons. She was at the reptile show in Tampa a few years ago and was selling dragons as sandfires, now these dragons were the dullest browns I had ever seen and NOTHING like what Sandfire Ranch produces so we asked them about them.......... she named them that as she said they looked like ones she saw in reptile magazines!!!! THey ahd no Sandfire lines in them at all, just he looking at a photo

So there are a lot of people in Tampa area, that bought dragons from someone there with wizard in their name, who think they have Sandfires and what they have a common dragons, which is not bad at all.... but they were misrepresented to them and they in turn will misrepresent them to others should they ever breed them.

A certificate means nothing from what I have seen, the only place I know giving out "certificates" does not even know where her dragons come from, so in that case, the certificates are make up and if it's the one I am thinking of, not only is there a lot of inbreeding in them, she claims to have developed a line that existed and was called that many years before she herself ever owned a dragon, let alone breed one. Most people selling dragons can maybe tell you the parents of the offsrping, but nothing beyond that and MANY times on FaunaClassifieds.com you will see people being exposed for claiming their animals are from a certain line, and the owner of that denying they ever sold any to them.

I remember once when someme claimed to have bought a baby from Mystical-Dragons and had it for sale as an adult and the owner from there coming on and pointing out when that dragon has to have been hatched based on its age, he had never evern breed any dragons yet, let alone hatched and sold one!!

There are a lot of people misrepresenting bearded dragons in the US

well seeing as i got my beardie from a local pet store almost 2 yrs ago i doubt they'd know what lines Nonamis came from :| but i did post pictures of him in this forum or maybe it was just the "general- photos" section *shrugs* he gets just about completely mustard yellow and cheeto dust orange when he is showing off or just basking you cant see it in the photos too well though :?

This is my bearded dragon PUFF. I also got him from a pet store and since then he has been great. I just can't tell what type of BD he is. May be unable to tell but I noticed that he changes from a tan to a dark brown when basking. SORRY IF THE PIX ARE TO BIG! I tried putting in the image codes for direct links but they wouldnt work.

We cant give you the morph blood line of you dragon from just a picture.
Most pet stores order from many mass production breeders.
The best way to bring out the colors in your dragon is to use a MVB.

Robert

Nothing wrong with getting your BD from a petstore rather than a breeder..
Mine is starting to shed and change its colors, from dark brown/slight gray, to a yellowish/orange.

There are actually a few things wrong with petstores vs. breeders. For instance, it is impossible to know the morph of your dragon without knowing its parents. It is considered a normal.